Note to mods: If it wouldn't be too much trouble, could we move this thread to the Tauros section? (or whatever section makes the most sense now that the Pisces server is gone) Please and thank you!
So, a lot has changed since my last real update, and now it is time to fill you all in on what is happening.
First off, I am changing my core team's dynamic. My wind (Sorania) and one of my fire killers (Syldra) are switching to being subs for my core team. Sorania should still be able to reach decent speeds using her cape, so her main purpose will be subbing in for quests that require a fast knight JS. Syldra's purpose remains speed farming content that doesn't require strong sealers.
My Core team will run with my Earth wit, fire killer, and water priest as usual, but will also include one more addition.
For my Core team, I have begun bursting a fire knight. The biggest problem I had with running a 4 element core team before was
1. How long it took to get the team killing things and
2. How easily it was stopped by sealing.
By swapping out my wind knight with a fire knight, I still get access to the knight JS, but I also have a second HSer. This lets me get that triple damage boost onto more characters more quickly, allowing my team to ramp up their damage MUCH faster than with only one fire. Secondly, this means I can afford to let one of the fires get sealed once in a while, and it doesn't completely cripple my team's damage when it happens. As I don't typically add agi on my wind anyway, her elements only strength wasn't really helping out that much as a main squad member. As a sub, she can sit on the sidelines until I can afford to deck her out in full +spd gear, thus making her useful again later without sacrificing efficiency in the now.
This swap also let's me not feel bad using Sorania as my main alchemist/manufacturer, as, being a sub, it is not important for her to level up ALL the time. I still fully intend to level and RB her Niss, but if I feel like making items on a 2x day, I might not hesitate to stop her from training to get that done.
Now that the server is not dead, the economy and trading has actually become much more important than ever before. Training vouchers float around only 1mil a piece, and the prices of everything have inflated to the point where I may be able to afford those once I get a shop full of alchemy items up and running.
Training vouchers are actually much better than I gave them credit for. At my level, using a training voucher is roughly equivalent to using a 2.5x potion. Except that the training voucher xp buff also stacks with potions and 2x, which makes the experience there so much better that training in the south pole actually feels pointless. I'd be much better off spending my time on 1x days selling items for training vouchers and doing instances for experience potions so that I can spend 2x in training island if I am looking to be efficient with my time, and so that has become the new goal: Get my income stable enough that I can train in training island every or every other week. In other words, I need to start making 4-6mil every week, which can only really be done once I get my shop open and start getting regular customers, which could take me a while.
As can be noticed above, I trained my new fire knight at cirrus until around level 20. (You'd be surprised how easy it is to train at cirrus when you add a bunch of CON first) I then got her her pet, and her gs, and bursted her up over the 2x. Hopefully I will get her and her pet rb'd in the next week or two through bursting, but we will see.
I set up a level 10 alt in hawaii to buy me mats, and left him logged in for 6 hours so he is able to trade them to my characters in carnie. This should hopefully allow me to easily make my items with my superior alchemy skill to eventually sell in carnie to other players.
Overall, my team has made a lot of progress as I did go ahead and use some of my free training island vouchers that I had saved up. Now that I intent to regularly buy and level there, it didn't feel as important to save them so I went ahead and used them up on 2x. The leveling speed there is insane, especially when using 4-5x pots from 15 rounds/maha. II can only imagine how ridiculous it would be if I got a 10x off maha, the xp there is already really good!.
Hopefully by next week I'll have made even more progress. I will be looking to finish bursting up my new fire on the next 2x, and will slowly make progress towards opening up a shop. I will see you guys next post!
Note to mods: If it wouldn't be too much trouble, could we move this thread to the Tauros section? (or whatever section makes the most sense now that the Pisces server is gone) Please and thank you!
Just a bit of rambling while I figure out what direction I am going for for my next major update.
The more I play this game, the more I manage to confuse myself. So, I was nostalgia tripping on my Fire Wit and remembered that I had scrolled her Frederico, but got annoyed that it was still adding points to wis anyway, so I had stopped training it in favor of Victoria. Out of curiosity, I decided today to compare it to my Niss.
They may be 60 levels apart, but hey, Fred has almost the same amount of CON and INT as my Niss. But don't worry, Niss will surely earn more stat points than Fred would when I rb her, which would make them about the same after that, right?
....And then I looked it up. Fred actually gains one more total stat points on rb than Niss does.
Not only does Fred have WAY higher base stats, but the difference between how many stats he gains on rb is as small as a couple points from the characters with the lowest? And wait, Niss gains LESS points on rb than Fred?
So Fred gets an easier time training than Niss, a stronger early game damage than Niss, and Niss doesnt even catch up in total stats until she gets fed IM food? As a full f2p player, Niss is seeming less and less like the most brilliant decision I've ever made and looking more and more like a... Mistake?
Even now my naked lvl 81 Niss still does less damage than my naked lvl 26 Fred does. Is Niss's rb skills really going to make THAT much more of a difference? Maybe she scales better with items than Fred, but by that point wouldnt Fred be almost just as good anyway? Sure, Fred doesnt have as much AOE as Niss, but is AOE ever the problem on the hard fights?
Looking at my characters, they all have capes with +10 stats. Which I didn't think much of at the time, but the difference in 70 ATK between perfect capes and +10 capes in actually really huge. Like, that's 1/3 of the power that a +200 item would give you. With current levels of inflation, that cape's stats is worth somewhere in the realm of 8 mil worth of stats, and the second highest accessory I can get is only about a +30, and even then only if I do some complicated looking compounding.
I don't want to admit that starting an entirely new team from scratch and bursting them to 180 would be a great idea for long-term goals, but it kinda would be. It wouldn't even be that hard with how quickly I could burst up a new group with my current team.
RBing a pet seems to add roughly the same amount of bonus stats for every single pet. Somewhere between 127 and 130 bonus stat points. This difference is actually really tiny. As such, being a full f2p player, the base stats of the pets kind of matter a lot more than I thought they did. My Niss will probably have the same CON and INT as that Fred on my Wit would have after rbing, but she would also have LESS of every other stat after rb, for no real reason. This is essentially the same as if Fred was fed a bunch of pet food at level 1. Why wouldn't I, as a f2p player, use the pet that comes with himself already fed a few pet foods for free? It is free power that Niss is never going to have, as there is no f2p way for me to make back that difference, and even if I wasnt f2p, the difference between a mass fed Fred and Niss in questing is still pretty close.
Pet training also seems to be much faster later on in the game. I was killing the exact same mobs as one of my guildmates. He was using a 5x pot and I was using a 3x pot, and it was a 2x day. He was pulling 15k xp per kill on his Clive, and I was pulling 990xp on my Niss. This is a much bigger difference than I would have ever expected. We were literally killing the same mob. The main difference? One: He was higher level and Two: He was doing more damage than me. Likely he was faster than my character too, but still. By being higher level, he was able to level his pets up faster than me killing the exact same things I was. Even using a 5x pot like him, I would still have significantly less xp/kill than he was getting.
Solution? Train pets later, train characters first. I kind of knew this mentality existed, but I didn't think it was actually right. But after seeing how the grinding xp formula works, I kind of agree with it now.
First of all, you can't even combo if your teams average level isn't 25 levels above the thing you are killing. So a newer player can't even guarantee a combo with his pets while training them. But on top of this, he will even earn less xp when he Does combo than someone much higher level than him training the same pet while dealing more damage.
If damage dealing is important in the amount of XP you get per kill, than 200 con on all my fires is honestly a bit too much. Somewhere between 150-175 would keep me tanky on the content I do at this level (50rb/150), such as 15 rounds and instances, while allowing me to dump more points into damage, which would, in turn, give me more experience per fight. With all the free HP and SP pots they give out with daily spins, it's not like I need to save HP/battle either, so the big reason for me maxxing my con first while training before seems less important.
BEFORE: I could train LONGER if I had more CON because I used less supplies
NOW: I have TOO MANY SUPPLIES to the point where I will NEVER RUN OUT.
Conclusion: I would benefit in a "next time" from having less con and more DAMAGE.
SO, I might remake my fires? That is, they will still be around, but I will be using them to burst replacements for my entire team?
I might not need to replace my water because MDEF doesn't matter, so it's not like I'd be using her cape anyway?
There are actually a few burstable pets with base stats almost as high as Fred's, like Victoria. I might have to revisit all the level 1 pets and check out who has the most base stats. I'm curious what I will find out.
Obviously base stats aren't as important for utility pets like Sasha and Xao Lan, but they are still an interesting metric to compare the different human pets.
^No, you're absolutely right. Fred's BST is so much higher than everyone else's it's rediculous. That said, some of the other pets, like Victoria, still have reasonably high BSTs compared to pets like Roca, Niss and Xaolan, who barely have any base stats at all. If going full f2p, it makes sense to either go all in on the easiest death quest, Xao Lan, or the highest BST, Fred, to maximize your gain/effort.
I suppose it's possible that damage makes little difference in training, but his Clive WAS higher level than me, so I do think damage plays a part in how much xp you are getting.
While 60 attack might not be a huge difference in damage, it's still a high value of stat value, considering that +200 stats are worth about 30mil or so. That said, if Ice Packs win out over capes anyway on higher level missions, than that difference is absolutely invalid. The thought that the cape would just about always be BIS if you rb'd later might actually be incorrect then, and early rb is still fine in that case.
I am still focusing on my main team as normal, not a lot has actually changed since a couple posts back, tho I am seeing Fred as a better ideal pet, I am not actually ready/wealthy enough to make the change since I have already used up all the free pet lethes.
It is still annoying that such a huge Base State Value difference is in place between the pets, tho I suppose wlo's creator decided that the pets from harder quests are just supposed to be flat out better than the easier to obtain pets, even after rb. (Tho pet food does close the gap between pets)
Time for yet another ramble-y update on how little progress I've been making.
As is the norm, when I find myself unable to accept the criticism of the game that I have been having, my progress has completely halted and not progressed these past few months. That said, I do very much still enjoy this game, though it is hard to say how much of that is pure nostalgia and how much of that is actual enjoyment.
It is really hard to play a game that I know I can never recommend to anyone else. The new player experience in this game is atrocious. New players reach about level 30 and then hit a pay wall that, without extensive game knowledge, is impossible to get over, and is still fairly difficult to circumvent even with said game knowledge. I cannot with good conscience subject my friends to this game.
Playing this game is a lot like playing a clicker game that happens to be multiplayer. Is the game absolutely fun? Yes, but not in any concrete, definable way. Players who cheat (dupers) and players who pay thousands of dollars will always be leagues ahead of players who don't, but that is a given in any clicker game. Players who run 20+ clients of the game at the same time will also be ahead of players who only play fewer.
This games flaws are really easy to see for any veteran.
Players can run as many clients as they want. The only world where botters have any advantage over a normal player is if his bot client takes up less CPU power to run, letting him run more clients than a normal player. After all, having 20 clients afk gathering gold in Kelan cave is way better than having 1-5 clients doing so. Are botters actually able to do this? I'm not super convinced that is the case, but certainly players with better computers have a distinct advantage over everyone else.
If IGG would just restrict the number of clients/ip address each player could run, the game would look very different to how it does today.
There is no gold sink in this game. NPC shops are so laughably bad that the only items worth buying from them are crafting materials (hawaii and select other places) and syrups. When you look at how much gold is coming in from farming Kelan cave/wolf teeth, there just are not enough places to spend it all. You can't blow gold->im at an npc, the gold that comes into the game stays in the game and the result is EVERY SERVER'S PRICES ARE CONSTANTLY INCREASING, and there is really nothing the players can do to stop it. We have nothing to spend our gold on of actual value unless we're an alchemist, and even then our expenses are fairly light.
A massive gold sink needs to be put in the game. Let players convert gold->im points at some ridiculously expensive rate, and prices should normalize. Or leave the economy broken, see if I care.
Because the new player experience is so bad, we are barely keeping any of the new players that join the game. They mess around for a bit, see just how behind they are, the few confident enough to try and bridge that gap discover the massive paywall that is weights, eremotes, and +200 gear, and then the majority leave. What's left are the long-time players who slowly get bored of a game with fewer and fewer new faces for them to talk to, and we start to see servers get less and less populated.
There are few things igg could do here, BUT they still could do something. Give new players a start burst kit, since they are clearly never deleting bursting at this point. Give players the bare essentials to at least be able to DO that. IF every new player started with weights and an eremote, the game would be MUCH nicer for new players. If they did that, I might even be able to recommend this game without choking on my own guilt.
Another note is that other versions of the game are flat-out better than ours. At the cost of not understanding anything the NPCs are saying, you could have a permanent e-rem and permanent 2x experience just for playing in the chinese version of this game instead. Considering how bad the translations are in our english version of the game, this trade-off is hardly a problem at all.
Our version of the game needs to have some draw to it so that we aren't strictly inferior to the chinese version of this game. Please?
This game is truly a clicker game. It's all about increasing our numbers. Increasing our character level, but few of us ever reaching level cap, increasing our damage numbers, but few of us every truly getting perfect gear, increasing our pets' levels, but also never really maxxing them out either. Am I okay with other players consistently having an advantage at increasing their numbers faster than me? My answer in previous years has been yes. My answer now might even still be yes.
By setting distinct rules/guidelines for me to follow, I didn't mind progressing at a very different (slower) pace than everyone else. However, part of me still believed I would catch up and progress at a similar pace after RB, and that just hasn't happened, yet.
Would it still be fun to get my pets to RB? I think so. The shut-down scare at the start of the year convinced me I didn't care all that much, so I stopped playing, but part of me hates leaving this unfinished.
Am I okay playing a game I consider to be terrible just because it is fun?
This game easily has the best crafting systems in any game I've played. The manufacturing and alchemy systems are absolutely fantastic.
The community is friendly, and making friends in game makes the game much more fun. However, making friends in any other game also makes them more fun, so it is best to ignore guilds and such when considering this game.
Based purely off of game mechanics, seeing my level increase, raising my cute little human pets to be stronger, and the crafting systems in game are all quite fun.
Conclusion: I'm not quite ready to declare if I'm quitting permanently or if I'll change my mind after messing around for a while longer. This game might still hold some value to me, so I might level my characters a little bit while I think about it. Maybe I'll be more decisive next update. Perhaps I'll even have made some solid progress, who knows.
It is not really that hard to get over lvl 30 in my opinion. Yes, you need knowledge on how to locate them BUT all this time, WLO community have been pretty helpful, be it in forums or in-game. It is their fault if they chose not to ask when they could and i'm pretty sure you could easily ask in world considering how early you could receive radio. You could get all the materials you need to build a Jalor in North & South Island with the blueprint given to you in the church by the pastor.
Personally, IGG bought the rights to translate this game only for the pure reason of earning money. Everybody would be spending money left and right just to get E-remote and other IM stuffs. TSOnline, the game that WLO overtaken was also the same.(It was worst,infact. Considering you have to pay to play the game after awhile.)
Speaking about burst, you do know it was actually a bug right? It was not meant for people to use in the first place, hence why there isn't a burst kit. IGG didn't remove it because it actually brings them profit, What a surprise right?
Been playing the chinese version, to what i know, debuff training work. Not sure about burst.
Other than that, everything else you stated is spot-on. I haven't touch WLO for god knows since when, but i still care about it. Just seeing the monkey logo and the red hair loli face on my desktop is good enough for me at least.
Very correct, relevant analysis. And also nice reading your thoughts about all that. I believe most of us can agree or feel the same. I'll be curious to find out whether you will show up here again and have an update about your progress, or stay away with another decision made.
That reminds me - today is the first day of a new adventure for myself.
When IGG announced the game closing last Christmas, from my reaction I could reason that even if I didn't login, I wasn't ready for this at all.
Back then, I made two decisions:
1. I spend an amount of money on the game, buying IM-points even if I don't need them, just to pay back a little for IGG to keep the ressources up for keeping this game alive. ( "Pay to play" )
2. I always wanted to understand the full story of the game with all the pets. I usually rushed through conversations with NPCs, or only read some of them, but I want to get the big picture. So from today, I want to start with a completely new character, which doesn't have any quests done yet, and travel through this world once more, to screenshot the actualy story that is being told.
I think we all still have some personal reasons why we are not ready to leave Wonderland behind for good just yet.
Entertainment? Here: https://youtu.be/zJGWv_axOiY
Quick update and questions here.
I believe that my progress at this point has lost meaning to me. Before, I had no one to compare to, so I didn't mind how slow I was going. I was the top of my own class. But after rebirth, I found myself comparing to those who bursted to 180 before rebirth, and those who had +200 gear to level faster, who eremoted with 180rb players to level their characters faster, and my sense of progress didn't feel like it meant as much.
I think the biggest troubles I have with my progress is:
1. I wasn't consistent with the limitations I placed on myself (eventually, I used eremotes. I let other players with no limitations boost me through events/quests)
2. Because of this, I progressed to the point where I had nothing left to compare myself to than those without limitations (lower self esteem in current progress)
3. Accepting donations (I believe this to have been a mistake)
The economy is/has never been stable enough to make any item hold its value over time. Accepting donations has an un-reproduceable effect to any trying to emulate my progress.
I am thinking if I decided to restart my journey, but while also creating a guild for any who wanted to join me with a similar restriction to their playstyle (a so-called group ironman mode, if you will), would there be other players who would want to join me?
If so, would we want to restrict:
No Erem? Or erems allowed?
One character? Or full team allowed?
No bursting? Only Manual Burst?
Guild only instances? Allow instances with outsiders?
What I would definitely restrict:
1. NO IM ITEMS. Period. [except maybe erems and cosmetics (no stat boosts)]
2. NO Trading/selling to those outside of the guild (we have our own guild economy/to prevent donations or buying OP IM items)
3. No quest help from those not in the guild (or following similar rules) (But helping others with quests is still fine, obviously)
Would people be interested in a group project with (somewhat) loose guidelines like these? It would be quite fun to see how different people in the group progress, to see if surprisingly fast methods for leveling with these restrictions come up.
[and yes, bursting without IM items IS possible till around lv 100-120 or so]
Let's discuss! -Fiara